r/unitedkingdom • u/lighthouse77 • May 27 '23
Social care system 'would collapse' without 4m unpaid carers, report warns
https://news.sky.com/story/social-care-system-would-collapse-without-4m-unpaid-carers-report-warns-12889569315
u/ellisellisrocks Devon May 27 '23
The simple problem is carers are not paid enough even though the companies that employ carers charge the world.
I have first hand experience of this my mum has worked in care for years and for the work she was doing and an absolute pittance run ragged and always going above and beyond because she won't see people suffer alone.
Different care company same location were asked how much it would be to have carers come in 3 times a day for my Gran on my dads side who recently passed away and what the agency wanted to charge was astronomical.
The government can't simply throw money at the problem unless it can be guaranteed that the money is going to filter down to those doing the actual work. If you compensate and acknowledge the properly the fantastic work that these people do on the front line of the care system you will over time begin to fix the labour shortage.
Additionally Gemma if your out there are reading this by some miracle you are an absolute star and you went above and beyond to the last day to make sure Gran was comfortable and although by the end she could not express it I know not a second of your time was unappreciated you are worth far more than you would ever ask for.
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u/ShalidorsHusband May 27 '23
Another argument for pay ratios
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u/killer_by_design May 27 '23 edited May 27 '23
Couldn't agree more. Whilst my Mrs was training to be a Radiographer at uni she worked in a premium nursery in Surbiton. It was around £35k/child/yr to go to this nursery, lots of celebrities sent their kids there.
The woman who owned it had dozens of properties across West London that housed her nurseries.
Every single employee she had, were on zero hour contracts, paid minimum wage with no sick pay or annual leave.
During the time my other half worked for her, she bought a giant town house for £8m in cash to turn into another nursery.
We really kidded ourselves that we'd moved past the feudal system.
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u/johnyma22 May 27 '23
she bought a giant town house for £8m in cash to turn into another nursery.
Semantics but... The business prolly bought it, it's unlikely she used her personal money.
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u/killer_by_design May 27 '23
No you're right, my point is more that business had £8m in cash reserves to make a real-estate purchase, whilst paying its staff the legal minimum amount, in the legal minimum way.
There was some huge shenanigans through Covid too where she just binned them off but asked parents to continue paying fees "to support the staff"....
Genuinely appalling human being.
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u/kaiser1000 May 27 '23
She sinks her money into the “business” to avoid/evade taxes.
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u/ScaryBreakfast1 May 27 '23
Buying a property for a business to use is not tax avoidance or evasion.
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u/SMURGwastaken Somerset May 27 '23
It's sort of tax avoidance but it's the sort we generally encourage because it's a good thing in the grand scheme.
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u/ScaryBreakfast1 May 27 '23
A property is capital expenditure and is generally not deductible in computing taxable profits, so it’s absolutely not tax avoidance.
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u/SMURGwastaken Somerset May 27 '23
But it being deductible is the mechanism of avoidance. It's the same as saying pension contributions aren't tax avoidance.
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u/Charming_Rub_5275 May 27 '23
It’s absolutely not tax avoidance. If a business uses the money it earned to buy a property to expand and continue to do further business… that is just business. It’s not tax avoidance, evasion or anything else.
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u/Mirorel May 27 '23
Oh I’m curious as I live round there.. which nursery? The Duckies one or whatever it’s called?
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u/frizzbee30 May 27 '23
It's an argument for bringing social care back into the stare sector, as opposed to private providers.
That's the only way to remove profiteering, companies collapsing and guarantee a fixed pay scale, that should be equivalent to in-hospital rates
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u/TNTiger_ May 27 '23
And also incentives (soft and... hard) to establish and transform existing companies into worker cooperatives, so employees actually get a say.
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u/felesroo London May 27 '23
My mother's nursing home costs $9,900 A MONTH. Yes, you read that correctly.
The home has dozens of residents yet the staff doesn't see most of that money. I honestly wonder where it all goes.
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u/Ok-Discount3131 May 27 '23
There is a care home near me and I have worked in a care home previously. I can tell you the money goes directly into the owners pockets. They had to beg for a new heating system in the middle of winter last year because the owner is so selfish. Lifts broken down, refusals to purchase basic stuff like chairs or plates, staff stealing food from the pantry because they can't afford to buy it.
Meanwhile the owner is driving around in his 80k car that he considers the cheap one in his collection.
You could solve most of the problems just by taking them into public ownership and using the money on residents instead of greedy owners.
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u/felesroo London May 27 '23
You could solve most of the problems just by taking them into public ownership and using the money on residents instead of greedy owners.
Agree 100%
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u/SMURGwastaken Somerset May 27 '23
All I know is that some of the consultant geriatricians I work with looked into opening a care home quite seriously, and concluded that they are basically just real estate companies and there's very little money to be made beyond simple appreciation in the value of a large property.
I think people grossly underestimate the regulatory overhead and maintenance costs involved. That said nowhere in the UK is charging $10k/month so that sounds like an Americanism.
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u/rogue6800 May 27 '23
Would it not be cheaper just to hire someone to look after her at home?
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u/felesroo London May 27 '23
For 24-hour care, probably not.
That's three full-time shifts for $35k/year each, roughly.
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u/bathoz May 27 '23
So, assuming £15k covers the supplies you need for their job, then you really could pay for 24-hour private, solo care for that price.
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u/felesroo London May 27 '23
Yes, I could, so I wonder how having three dozen people paying that for not one-on-one care isn't cheaper, which it should be.
Having a private full-time nurse should be the most expensive option and I could probably get one a bit cheaper.
I'm looking into sending her to a country where long-term care is cheaper than in the US, which is pretty much anywhere at this point.
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u/JayR_97 Greater Manchester May 27 '23
. I honestly wonder where it all goes.
Owners gotta buy a new Jaguar somehow
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u/YOU_CANT_GILD_ME May 27 '23
The government can't simply throw money at the problem unless it can be guaranteed that the money is going to filter down to those doing the actual work
This is why it needs to be done by the council and not private companies.
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u/Annual_Opposite2771 May 27 '23
I worked in respite care for a county council. It wasn't much different than working in a private company apart from the fact that it was made nearly inpossible to get rid of a terrible member of staff.
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u/TheKnightsTippler May 27 '23
There needs to be a National Care Service.
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u/TheBrassDancer Canterbury May 27 '23
I remember that there was a guy who proposed this… now what was his name… um, Jeremy Corbyn?
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u/LDKCP May 27 '23
When I was 18 the company I was working for folded, I had recently moved out of home, I couldn't afford not to work.
I went to an agency, they told me they had an opening I would be a good fit for, but it was minimum wage. It was an office job.
I didn't have much choice. I gratefully accepted the £3.60 an hour.
After a few months I was offered a permanent position, the manager told me they didn't want to pay the agency rate of £8 per hour, but they would match what they paid me.
So I was working 40 hours a week for months, making a measly £150 per week and the agency was pulling in more than my wage an the company was paying £320 per week.
Whenever I read about how many hospital staff are agency workers and how many carers are agency workers, I wonder how much money is going straight in the pockets of the people doing barely any work.
Then the government pretends they can't afford to pay NHS staff more money, which in turn pushes those staff to work for agencies, which costs the NHS more.
It feels like corruption chaps.
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u/anothereffinguser May 27 '23
This issue is the profiteering. The cares are often on minimum wage.
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u/HuhDude European Union May 27 '23 edited May 27 '23
They are rarely on minimum wage, but I agree that the vast majority of the care call price should go to the worker actually providing that care call.
Forestalling the replies; please read this short article on profitability in the care sector.
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u/paulusmagintie Merseyside May 27 '23
Had carers come into the shop and watched one phone the office and no answer, she then used the phone of another carer and they picked up.
They literally refuse to answer to her because they know the client she is with was diffito deal with, that was 10 years ago
The system doesn't work, we expect these people to work 24/7 for minimum wage, they need paying more and more support.
Everyone from GPs, nurses, Drs amd care works need increased pay, then people will start looking to do the jobs
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u/jim_jiminy May 27 '23
As a caregiver I agree. I work hard. I give my heart and soul to look after, care and love others peoples relations and I get minimum wage. I’m looked at and regarded by society as the lowest of the low. Even by my family. I wish for more pay, but it’s not coming. I don’t think people realise that they will more than likely end up in care. Do they consider this? That their final years quality of life will be in the hands of an over stretched minimum wage worker? If more people perhaps considered this, staff would be rewarded sufficiently. Maybe I’m being naive though.
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u/ellisellisrocks Devon May 29 '23
Your not being naive and you deserve the admiration of the entire country.
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u/Flobarooner Crawley May 27 '23
There's a lot more problems than just pay. Agencies charge a lot but it's genuinely a very expensive and volatile business to get into - the number of care agencies I've seen pop up out of nowhere to serve 1 or 2 long term clients, and then immediately evaporate when that client passes away, is maddening
The demand is just so inconsistent because of the nature of most of the cases. Often it will play out as follows:
A patient receives a life changing diagnosis or injury, and suddenly becomes one of a few people in a relatively sparse area needing complex care for the next however many years
They're stuck in hospital waiting to be discharged because CHC cannot find a local care agency able to fulfil the demand
The care package sits on the list along with a couple others for a few months while some new agency gets put together to take them on
The person is finally discharged, lets pray to God the agency is actually any good and the client finds them a good fit, otherwise the patient risks being left high and dry and either going back into hospital as a last resort or being cared for full time by an unpaid member of family while the process starts over
They spend the next year or so providing more and more complex care to the individual(s), taking on and letting go a string of carers in that time until they find ones who establish a good dynamic with the client(s). This can eventually leave as many as 4 local carers with the same main client that they spend the majority of their time with, while the agency finally settles into a good routine between their few clients and carers
The individual passes away, leaving ~4 carers essentially out of a job as the agency desperately tries to fit them in somewhere else but it cant because now the demand isn't high enough
The carers leave and join a different agency in hopes of finding work or, as is very often the case, leave care altogether and move into a trade that they've spent the last year studying part-time for because they knew this day would come
The agency trundles along on life support or just collapses and dissolves with their employees scattered into the wind
A new patient suddenly receives a life changing diagnosis or injury..
Pay needs to be increased, but the care system should not be privatised. It's completely inflexible which is simply not a sustainable system in an industry with inherently volatile demand. That's why the current solution to this inflexibility is for agencies to collapse and spring out of nowhere somewhere else to meet demand as it appears
Local care providers need to be able to share carers and cover a wider area - it's unlikely that an agency's carers will live wherever the agency is based, and so their "catchment area" for clients is unlikely to be the same as the agency's, and often overlaps in only a relatively small area. This would also help them to ride out periods of changing demand, as the wider area covered would help to normalise it at scale. They could have all of the area's local carers on their books which would enable them to better share that supply across clients to plug gaps in availability. And that can then extend to the administrative side of things too - I know agency coordinators who have literally sacrificed their marriages for their job, only to go down with a sinking ship months later and burn out completely. A nationalised social care system could actually hold onto this workforce and talent long term, which goes under the radar so much in these discussions. It's not just about the carers, good admin staff and coordinators make an absolute world of difference to the client's wellbeing
This is an area near and dear to my heart and I'd love for someone in government to just give me a govt department and a blank cheque to fix it because jesus fucking christ it's terrible right now and is doing real long term damage to people's lives. Solutions do exist beyond just increasing pay for carers, but it needs a complete overhaul. Social care hasn't been functioning for decades and it's frankly absurd that this is a private service. We all baulk and feel instinctive disgust to the suggestion that general healthcare should be privatised but we allow it for social care when in reality it's not much different, and the consequences flow back into the NHS anyway. So many people sitting in hospital occupying a bed now when they don't need to be, and that's actively harming everyone involved, from the patient, to the NHS, to the local care system
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u/multijoy May 27 '23
Is the answer more domiciliary care, or should we be looking at more sheltered accomodation/convalescent homes?
Or a corps of salaried care workers who aren't paid by the job?
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u/LiverBird103 May 27 '23 edited May 27 '23
This is exactly it.
In my last job I worked in the office of a care agency. I noticed very quickly that even the staff with all the qualifications who had been there for years, who turn up on time for every shift and get along with the patients, would make - at absolute maximum - £1 above minimum wage. Not only that, but the company was very very misleading about the amount of hours they would offer staff, routinely promising 30+ hours then giving way less.
Meanwhile, tye owner and one of the directors co-owned a private jet.
The result of this? 99% of the people who did the very hard, extremely necessary work got burned out and left as soon as they could and the people who contributed nothing got rich and were constantly on holiday. Essentially, you're making it so the only people willing to do a really important job are people who either can't get anything better or are willing to put up with horrific conditions, because as soon as they could, they left.
If we decided to start from scratch tomorrow and design a new social or economic system we would never in a million years dream of designing something like that because it has such awful results, and anyone with two brain cells can see both the service users and the staff get fucked and only the people who have nothing to contribute see the benefits.
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u/Sachinism May 27 '23
Nailed it. I know a few people who own/run care homes and they're multi-millionaires. Insane levels of wealth. But they expect everything for cheap, including labour.
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u/PiersPlays May 27 '23
That is a different problem related to the quality of care where paid care is provided.
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u/Middle-Ad5376 May 27 '23
The issue is a maths one. Pay a carer 40k a year for 3 times a day visitation. Lets say they look after 3 people in total
Pay, tax, NI, pension, vehicle use, systems, medicine, all the other costs. Its probably £100k of cost.
So divide that by 3. £33.5k,
Thats for zero profit, against a £0 company overhead for other staff.
You pay just under £100 a day, include overhead and other you're probably at £135 a day.
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u/SMURGwastaken Somerset May 27 '23
You're not wrong, but the problem with social care ultimately is that it's something literally nobody wants to pay for, including the people who need it - who incidentally are the wealthiest demographic.
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u/Cowboy_Billy_and May 27 '23
It’s a really difficult decision to make when your unborn child is diagnosed with a life altering condition. We treat animals more humanely sometimes.
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u/Anochel May 27 '23
Unpaid carer here, last 22 years, because of this. Previously regional manager retail trade.
2 of my children, now in their 20’s have autism: one is low functioning, lives in the world of Nintendo. The other is bed-bound. Multiple complex health issues. I also cared 24/7 for my father, 4 years: 86, Level 5/6 Alzheimer’s, incontinence and mobility issues.
For this I get approx £415 a month. CA is given but taken pound for pound, (CA should be a stand alone benefit, not tax / wealth related), as I have no choice but to claim benefits. Never a day off. Last holiday was 2007. Caring for them is 24/7, there is no one else to do it. Never had respite, can’t even get my daughters social worker replaced, who retired 12 months ago.
You give up everything health, wealth and life, because the government care not to care.
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u/lighthouse77 May 27 '23
What a brilliant person you are. I hope you have some help soon.
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u/Anochel May 27 '23
Thank you, It needs the government to actually be put in this position, walk in our shoes.. then they might just actually realise how much we do, and get the recognition deserved, also not having to continually fight the system, for what is rightfully theirs.
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u/PiersPlays May 27 '23
It's so crazy to me that carer's allowance is so tiny but also almost impossible to qualify for.
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u/Anochel May 27 '23
In truth it is actually easier to qualify for it, than to actually receive the “tiny” amount when your application is successful
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u/PiersPlays May 27 '23
Yeah tbc I meant receive rather than actually claim but get nothing (though I think it does qualify you for stuff like free prescriptions etc if you don't already so it is better than literally nothing. Just not by much for most people.)
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u/ZaryaBubbler Kernow May 27 '23
It's worse when you find out that should the person you're caring for end up in hospital for longer than 2 weeks, your CA payments get stopped. As if you're not still going to be doing their household chores, and running their errands while they're in hospital. Care is more than physically helping them around the house and out in public, it's making sure the house is clean, and making sure the bills are paid.
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u/macjaddie May 27 '23
Carers allowance should be the same as a professional would get paid to do that job. The current rates are an absolute insult.
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u/Anochel May 27 '23
Agree totally. CA if on benefits is just given, then taken £ for £ because the “law” states on benefits you can live on £115 so any other benefit is just deducted away. Similar to those who care and work. Only allowed to earn £138 a week (not sure on exact figure), even £1 over and you loose the CA.
Just wrong! CA should be a stand alone benefit, like Attendance Allowance, PIP etc. Non taxable or wealth related. CA would make a huge difference to unpaid carers. We do the jobs of professionals and more but without the monetary recognition, not to mention that it takes away our lives, financially, physically and mentally.
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u/macjaddie May 27 '23
My son has T1 diabetes, doesn’t sound that bad, but when he was first diagnosed it was like having a new born! We were up multiple times a night and checking his sugars every 2 hours in the day. I could have qualified for carers allowance because he gets moderate DLA, but I’d have had to give up work and be WAY worse off. I don’t know how people manage caring for someone with a more profound disability.
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u/gentian_red May 29 '23
the “law” states on benefits you can live on £115 so any other benefit is just deducted away
Have they ever said that UC is a liveable amount? What is the threshold for poverty these days?
Strangely carer's allowance allows you to have a hundred million in savings and you can still receive it, but get a job at minimum wage for more than 12hrs per week and it is all taken away. Sometimes I wonder the decision making behind all of this.
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u/bazpaul May 27 '23
This is devastating to read. Hope you get a break soon
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u/Anochel May 27 '23
Thank you.. 💕 Ah you do it because you love them want the best for them. They are put first before anything.. Break soon.. doubt it but can hope..
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u/bazpaul May 27 '23
We have autism in our family and it makes me really nervous about having a child as I’m not sure I can be a carer for the rest of my life. I realise that is really selfish but I just wouldn’t have it in me
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u/Anochel May 27 '23
If I had known how screwed up my genetics are I would never have had kids.. I am “normal” if there is such a definition.. but my Dad, (me knowing a huge amount about autism) is on the spectrum, and my ex husband, both have many traits and are high functioning.. Their brains are definitely wired differently. I actually remember saying to my mum, if I ever had a handicapped child I would give it up.. Then fate stepped in and said nope get on with it.. My brother decided never to have kids. Hopefully our linage stops with my kids as none of them want kids either.
It is a tough call to make in your / my situation, and at present no so called test to see if that “embryo” will have autism, unlike Down syndrome.
Really wish you all the best in your choice.. and whatever happens you learn to deal with the choices made. Don’t get me wrong I love my kids, but life could have been very different.
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u/bazpaul May 30 '23
So it sounds like there is no pattern to the different ends of the spectrum that a child can be born with, is that right?
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u/PetraLoseIt The Netherlands May 27 '23
I chose to not have kids for this reason and I'm still, 20 years later, very happy with my choice.
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u/ravid-david May 27 '23
Youve made an educated decision, i think it would be selfish to have said kids and expect the government to pay for them the rest of their lives.
When the time comes that you cant look after them, how good is their lives gonna be stuck in a care home with people only there for a wage?
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u/Warrrdy May 27 '23
I hope you get the help you need, from what I’ve read you seem like an incredibly caring person.
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u/Anochel May 27 '23
Thank you, but you care because it is family and you want the best for them. The care / social system has to change because at the moment it is very broken, supported by millions who give up everything. Everything I do you can guarantee there are unpaid carers in harder positions, mentally, financially and physically pitted against against a corrupt, greedy, power hungry government.
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u/Joszanarky Devon May 28 '23
I'm going to sound harsh, but why? Why would you give up your life for 2 people 1 of which has no life and the other is severely limited. That's 3 humans who aren't working 2 of which are just draining money time and energy just to experience life in a limited way. I don't understand why we spend millions of resources keeping these people alive. It's not natural, forcing someone to live a bed ridden life and is ultimately a fruitless endeavour apart from whatever sense of self gratification you give yourself for sacrificing everything.
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u/Anochel May 28 '23
Not harsh, agree, but because we have to abide by the law and Humanitarian Rights: Everyone is entitled to these rights without discrimination. It is the norm. Though it never mentions those that have to give up everything to care for them. It is a waste of more than just their life but mine also, and a huge waste of resources. Especially adult social care. As the original commenter posted we treat animals more humanely. My father is now in a care home: a broken empty shell of the man he was, contributes nothing to society. Has to have care 24/7. Totally incontinent, can’t walk. Costs an absolute fortune. Memory of everything is just gone. Asks me many times why he is still here. Doesn’t want to live, no will power left, but because of the law. He is fed / kept alive. I can’t afford to take him to Switzerland even though that is what he wants. Just wrong in so many ways. The law does need need to change, but people are not ready yet to enforce a dignified end.
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u/Joszanarky Devon May 28 '23
Thank you for your honest reply it has helped me understand this isn't what anyone really wants just our laws are dated and are causing untold struggle.
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u/gentian_red May 28 '23
I did this for my parents... if they hadn't eventually died I would have drank myself to death by now.
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u/Anochel May 28 '23
This comment.. understand totally. People actually have to experience the situation, until then they cannot fully comprehend what it actually means and how much it effects your life and you..
Really glad you now have your life back..
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u/WolfgangSho May 27 '23
What are your thoughts on other people making abortion decisions based around potential autism markers?
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u/Anochel May 27 '23
Every expectant mum, (and partner), should have pro choice. They at the end of the day, are the ones to give birth, and look after that baby. Which could mean potentially giving up their so called life if the child born has severe autism, to look after it 24/7. Your life changes dramatically. Financially, physically and mentally. It is a real hard call, but if there were tests for markers of autism, then I do believe it is totally the choice of the parents as to whether they continue with the pregnancy. All this pro life in America at the moment I can understand, to a degree, but I would and always be pro choice.
I also look on it another way. If I was that foetus in the womb and had severe autism. I truthfully don’t think I would want to try and cope in our world.
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u/Fightingdragonswithu May 27 '23
One of the reasons I’m desperate for the Lib Dems to have more influence in the next Parliament. Sir Ed Davey is a carer himself and has been most of his life. He understands the hardship of the role and the importance of these people to our heath and social system.
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u/ld4484 May 27 '23
Yep. I was looking through their previous manifesto and they were on about wanting a special min wage for carers, that was a couple of quid/hr more...great idea.
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u/thepogopogo May 27 '23
Unpaid carers don't get minimum wage, living wage, or any other wages. They get carers allowance.
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u/ld4484 May 27 '23
I know. I was just mentioning about the proposition LibDems had for a special min wage for (paid ) carers.. hopefully it will drive more people into the job and reduce the chronic understaffing in the care sector.
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u/thepogopogo May 27 '23
The last time the Lib Dems were in power I was an unpaid carer. They reduced the assistance I got for council tax, and rent, which combined took the equivalent of my weekly carers allowance away from me. I had to give up TV, and breakfast. Anyone that supports the Lib Dems or the Tory party supported what they did to me and others like me. Fuck them.
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u/ScaryBreakfast1 May 27 '23
The Lib Dem’s were never in power. That was the tories. The Lib Dem’s propped them up, but had limited power to make any decisions.
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u/PhobosTheBrave May 28 '23
The Tories could only do what they did because the LDs helped them though, therefore they are complicit.
Same with the unforgivable backstab of tuition fees.
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u/Fightingdragonswithu May 27 '23
Thoughts on a new Lib Dem bill that just passed parliament entitling unpaid leavers to further time off. Unfortunately in coalitions junior parties have to legislate things they don’t believe in in order to get stuff they do believe in passed.
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u/UnholyDoughnuts May 27 '23
I was raised die hard labour, other year had a libdem door knock. Bustards took me off guard talking about the wheel chair in the porch (partner is disabled I'm a full time carer). Started asking me if I think the current government is doing much for carers and disabled people. I think and I could be wrong but they're the only party with plans for an aging population with our current population pyramid that want to reform the way carers are paid so we can do work hours that are achievable. I say this cause at present it's 12 hours or less and under ~100 a week. I say approximately cause I've not worked in a couple years to know the current system. Either way the reason I've not worked is cause I'd be worse off. I worked it out and unless I work 45 hours a week using my degree in a management role I'd be worse off cause of paying a carer each and every day plus travel plus the commute time (yes I count time commuting as time paid cause I'm not at home where I'd like to be). It's quite literally an impossible situation more people are going to find themselves in with the aging baby boomers. Care homes already maxed out and social services stretched beyond belief people are gonna find themselves carers whether they want to be or not and then and only then will it change.
It's not related in terms of the subject but what Martin Luther king said stuck with me about the white middle class. The quotes fucking long but the TLDR is white middle class don't want change they're apathetic to everything till it hurts them. Then they realise how fucked the system really is and it's too late. For real change we need to start more grass roots politics. The Internet should make this easier not harder.
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u/ld4484 May 27 '23
People would be surprised/ disgusted if they saw some of the salaries' of the CEOs of charities/not for profits etc.. When I worked for one, it wasn't unusual for care workers to be on around £10/hr (about 50p above min wage), no extra from overtime/night shift etc, agency staff would be getting around £15, up to £25 depending on overtime/bank hols etc, and the agency themselves would be charging £50+ for this. And the further up the chain you go, the higher the salary and the more removed from the actual important work (as is true with most job)... Then you get people leaving all their money in a will, or spend their life fundraising etc, expecting it'll do good, help change the world.. no, it just goes towards paying £150k+ salaries.
Don't even get me started on the actual unpaid carers or those expected to make do with £76 a week for Carers' Allowance...
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u/Jetstream-Sam May 27 '23
My granddad is currently getting in home care and several of the carers have to use the bus to get around since they simply can't afford a car. Meanwhile, when my aunt and I went to their local headquarters, there was a lambo and a jaguar in the parking space, belonging to the board member in charge. They made a point of showing my dad because he was impressed by it.
The carers meanwhile can't take as many clients as they want because they need to account for up to an hour's worth of bus travel between each patient because the bus services here only run every half an hour, if that. And they're still losing a fortune because it's £23 a week, or £80 a month
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u/ld4484 May 27 '23
I hope things go well with your grandad. Before the job I mentioned above, I worked as a community carer..lasted a week. You would get 15-30min per client to give meds, wash, dress and feed and get them settled on the sofa or whatever. As you prob know, it can take 15min to even just have meds. Was expected to work between 7am-10pm, 7 days a week, shifts often scattered in blocks throughout the day, so you never got a proper rest.. and travel time wasn't paid (it was before they changed the laws on it). Luckily I drive, I can't imagine how hard it would be being reliant on public transport (its pretty poor round here too) Often there were schedule conflicts, resulting in service users being left with no care at all. It was an awful company. Turns out they went bust due to fraud and other wrongdoings a few years later...says it all really.
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u/howcaneyehelpyou May 27 '23
NAL, but thought I should mention this I used to know someone who worked for ACAS and apparently the care company have to pay for your travel time between clients. If they don't, seek legal advice.
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u/ld4484 May 27 '23
They do nowadays, back then they didn't have to (hence why I mentioned it was before the law change). I've long been out of that job thank god. Thanks for the warning though, hopefully it'll help others as god knows there will be no end of companies trying to get away without paying..
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u/X10t1 May 27 '23
I work in residential care with young adults, the people that I work with now are very physically capable and mostly need help planning, processing and managing. Even in this environment we have a full hour either side of an ideal time for meds alone. I can't imagine doing all of that in half an hour. It's not even that they have complex meds just that sometimes they aren't in the right place mentally for that task.
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u/ld4484 May 27 '23
For the community care job, it was all elderly people you had to care for, so some had physical issues, others have cognitive issues as well. Luckily the ones I worked with seemed to understand the meds and it wasn't much of an issue, but I would have issues such as they needed taking to the loo etc, which as you know can be a long process... I then went to a residential home where it was a range of complex needs, and yeah, the meds could be a nightmare, often resulting in 111 calls as a user wouldn't take meds at all, even after hours of trying..
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u/X10t1 May 27 '23
I've been very lucky with not having any real experience with meds refusals. I remember one was reluctant but as soon as I told them I was going to take it away for destruction they wanted it so getting proper consent sucked. One unusual one was someone who had competency for their own medication who had taken it when I wasn't there and was upset, not understanding why I wasn't willing to sign off on their medication.
The people I work with currently are generally excellent with meds and while they don't have competency are happy to be involved with the process, reading through labels with me and the like.
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u/ld4484 May 27 '23
That sounds a lot easier than I had, most I dealt with didnt have the capacity. I still used to explain what I was doing and why though. It sounds quite a relaxed environment you have, where you're more a reminder/support than anything else?
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u/X10t1 May 27 '23
Most I've worked with needed a lot closer support. I mainly work with two individuals now one of whom needs verbal prompting for many tasks but can do it without direct physical support. For both we primarily support with financial management, making sure important things like meals and meds happen and that there are things happening to do, be it going out into the community or doing things at home. The second needs the most support with emotional regulation and his needs while complex are far less demanding when his emotional needs are met. It can be very draining but I find it nowhere near as intense as many of the previous service users I've worked with. I suspect there is a lot of unresolved trauma for him but that is not something I will ever have the access to confirm.
As I said I've worked with much more intense care packages in the past but since the pandemic the company I work for tried to form bubbles around the permanent service users to help reduce COVID risks and so I've been working consistently with a pair who live together.
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u/impablomations Northumberland May 27 '23
Friend of mine works for Leonard Cheshire charity as a carer, the CEO is on around £150k.
Latest orders from on high, are to turn off all TVs at 7pm, even in clients rooms when they are watching them, to save money.
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u/ld4484 May 27 '23
Of course. QCC might be interested in that? Mass deprivation of liberty or similar
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u/ihaveadarkedge May 27 '23
It's the financial disparity that saddens me the most. Unpaid carers don't get close to the same funds and grants that paid carers have access to and utilise - the amount of paperwork that lumps both carer/unpaid carers together right up until the expenses part is shocking- there's also a massive lack of knowledge in the duties, role and responsibilities of unpaid carers and most of the professional social care staff I've dealt with are utterly clueless to the difference of the two.
It's sinful and has been happening for years.
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u/MrECoyne May 27 '23
Sounds more like we just don't actually have a social care system, just a lot of people picking up the slack out of their own moral obligation.
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u/EdzyFPS May 27 '23
This is exactly how it is. My Fiancée cares for her elderly gran, and it's pretty much a full on full time job and then some. The government give you a measly £60 per week to cover "expenses".
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u/old_chelmsfordian May 27 '23
Isn't the popular expression that the NHS would collapse without the good will of its staff?
Seems like that's the case for many public services across the board. Education is reliant on teachers going above and beyond, and social care is very reliant on unpaid or poorly paid workers doing a lot of work out of the goodness of their heart.
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u/Cynical_Classicist May 27 '23
The Tories have made a real mess of our social care system.
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u/jeweliegb May 27 '23
The Tories have made a real mess
of our social care system.FTFY
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u/Cynical_Classicist May 27 '23
Nice.
The Tories are a real mess! An Eton mess, you might say!
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u/CcryMeARiver Australia May 27 '23
Seems they're pretty gifted at eton ... and heton ... themselves.
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u/-Incubation- May 27 '23
As a carer, I currently get £189 a month providing care for over 35 hours a week. Carer's Allowance is taken pound for pound off Universal Credit effectively rendering it useless. That equates to £47.25 a week, £6.75 (for 7 days) a week and about £1.35 an hour. Carers do not get enough support whatsoever.
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u/anothereffinguser May 27 '23
4m MINIMUM. I see partners, often with severe health issues themselves, caring for even sicker partners every day.
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May 27 '23
[deleted]
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u/anothereffinguser May 27 '23
And the number of unreported people needing care is probably ten times the reported numbers 😤
Love your username btw
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u/banginthedead May 27 '23
My father died 7weeks ago, I've known it was coming for 6months so have given up work to care for my blind/disabled mother and my 90year old grandfather.
I can't claim carers allowance for both (even though they are at different addresses)
76pounds a week is my entitled allowance.
I'm fortunate enough to have savings but that puts me over the threshold to claim any UC allowances.
It's a joke
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u/lighthouse77 May 27 '23
I’m sorry for your loss. You sound like you’ve had an awful time with no money.
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u/BringBackAoE May 27 '23
I also feel this will hit the young generation harder.
The economy now requires both partners to be working full time. Young people have a mountain of debt for housing and studies. And then we’re seeing a rapid increase in health issues that require full time care, ranging from autism in kids and Alzheimer’s hitting more people younger. Add to that the divorce rates of the parent generation, meaning care more often falls on the kids than the parents.
I have a friend in her late 20s that finished her studies a couple years ago (huge debt) and just got married. She’s an only child, and now her divorced dad got early onset Alzheimer’s.
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u/N3wAfrikanN0body May 27 '23
Translation: we need to enslave people to do the work we have always thought beneath ourselves
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u/Mccobsta England May 27 '23
Social care sucks in this country just look at how many people with autism and the likes are still stuck in hospital as there's fuck all to get them out
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u/mittfh West Midlands May 27 '23
And for those in Supported Living or Residential Care (typically small units with less than a dozen residents and round-the-clock support), it isn't unusual for councils to be charged £3-4,000 per week.
Conversely, they'll pay only around £15-20 per hour per person per carer for "ordinary" home care, and less for Direct Payments (and, of course, if DPs are used to employ a carer directly, they'll be getting just over £11 per hour once tax, NI, pension etc. is deducted).
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u/Mccobsta England May 27 '23
Oh it's lovely isn't it I work at a day center for adults with learning disabilities and the like regularly get talking to the house staff when they get dropped off and so many are on such low wages it's shame full especially with all the special training for those with epilepsy and other seizures
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u/HisDudeness316 May 27 '23
Exactly why carer's allowance should be linked to minimum wage. It's an insult at its current level and leaves carers in poverty.
Signed, a carer.
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u/17DeadFlamingos May 27 '23
People who need carers should just pull themselves up by their bootstraps /s
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u/malint May 27 '23
Those unpaid care workers are people looking after their loved ones. Their mum, dad, brother, sister, child or grandparent. Nobody who cares for other people should go unpaid. Actually I’d like to see government funds go to these people instead of businesses. Because businesses don’t care about people
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u/EdzyFPS May 27 '23
Especially when you can't work, because it's at the minimum, a gruelling full time job.
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u/soundjunkeyz May 27 '23
I have been an unpaid carer for 16 years until last July. It is something that I'm proud of and don't regret, but it is also something that has destroyed my life. During those years, I lived on around £67p/w as I looked after my grandparents and my dad. I was fortunate and able to do so because my family had no debts prior to their illnesses. In my city, I was one of the younger carers in the support groups, I dare think how many out there that didn't get support(started at 16).
During this period, I have received a lot of abuse from people questioning why I am looking after my family. The reasons vary, from being called a freeloader to claims that I don't do anything and have an easy life. Some even suggested that my family was fine and I should throw them into a care home, among other things. The cost of a care home is around £40k a year, with a nursing home costing around £50k a year. Despite saving the government tens of thousands of pounds each year, I received none of the benefits that a carer would normally receive, like a blue light card. Being an unpaid carer, we are treated like shit, and a prime example of this is when the government blocked free parking for unpaid carers at hospitals, and they were proud of it.
During a 6-year period of looking after my grandad after my dad died, I spent 6 days a week taking care of him. When he passed away, I was ridiculed and told that I would now have to get a real job and experience how tough the real world is. I now work for an engineering company, and I can tell you, it's easier compared to being a carer. For a year, I slept on the floor, and later on, a sofa bed to assist my grandad in going to the toilet every 2 hours during the night. I would sleep in spells of 2 hours from 2-4 am, 4-6 am, 6-8 am, and then 10 am-12 pm.
I sought help from the council, but they said they had no funding to assist my grandad. Their funding doesn't extend to nighttime care anymore, and their only option was a care home and accruing debt from it. The Tories' cuts to council funding during austerity hit social care the hardest. Sometimes, the direct cuts aren't the most brutal
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u/law_1990 May 27 '23
it works out to about £1.40 an hour i get looking after my ma currently based off a 12 hour day (which it isn't, closer to 16). That's with carers and income support. Can't get a part time job because ma needs someone around at all times pretty much. Not very well myself and 2bh it's hard to really see a future where i'm not fucked. No savings, no pension (apart from what contributions income support provides) but i won't be making pension age anyway. Like i'm not even in the worst position compared to some others but it's like i don't even have an identity at this point.
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May 27 '23
I have had to give up my job to be a carer, what would happen if I just turned around and said sod it, I’m going back to work….
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u/Princ3Ch4rming May 27 '23
It’s collapsing just fine even with them.
I keep telling people to avoid my industry. It’s depressing, heartbreaking and feels like we’re that old couple stuck on the Titanic. We know it’s happening, we can see it happening and we can do fuck all to stop it.
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u/virgopunk May 27 '23
I don't see a 'system' at all. I see a bureaucratic layer of bullshit designed to break vulnerable people on the wheel. With councils going bankrupt at a rate of knots I really can't see a way out other than a collossal investment and a complete rethink. The vast majority of paid care is run on a 'for profit' basis. Managers of care homes driving around in Mercs and BMWs. Caring for the disabled and vulnerable is not a market for ripe exploiting. Until we take it back from the private sector and improve wages for those working in social care, things will never improve.
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May 27 '23
Social Worker here. It IS collapsing. We are on the verge of a humanitarian crisis where a lot of people are doing to die. Hospitals have started discharging people without care, creating a never-ending loop of readmissions. Care homes are full. All for the sake of some stupid ideology that should've been discarded in the 30's.
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u/pisa36 May 27 '23
Yep and when the person passes away or ages out of care the carer is pretty much unemployable due to years of not working. They’re not allowed mortgages or to save more than £6k it’s ridiculous.
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u/FreedomEagle76 May 27 '23
I was a carer for a while and it doesnt really make you unemployable. There are a lot of transferable skills you have to develop which can help get a job.
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u/iameverybodyssecret May 27 '23
The problem is the parasite system (capitalism) the higher up the chain you go the bigger the parasite.
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u/CornellScholar May 27 '23
Hold on a minute..why are they unpaid? I thought we paid taxes for this kind of shit?
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u/passingconcierge May 27 '23
They are Unpaid because you do not pay taxes for this kind of shit. If you did, your income tax would be 33p in the £ higher than it is now. You do pay taxes for Paid Carers but that is also a pitiful sum that penalises those Carers more than it helps them.
The only people who see any money are "organisations" who "coordinate" and "organise". They avoid actually doing anything because you can offload that onto the tax paying Carers.
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u/KingApologist May 27 '23
Do triage a few months before major parliamentary elections, starting with reducing or eliminating care for old people. The healthcare system will transform overnight.
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u/nolo_me May 27 '23
It left him quadriplegic, blind and with severe earning difficulties.
Saying the quiet bit out loud.
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u/aspietrekkie May 27 '23
I have Asperger's, I helped look after my mentally ill mother for 20 years, worse mistake I ever made. now I'm a mental wreck .
Wish I had never laid eyes on the woman
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u/PinqPrincess May 27 '23
They make the system so that there are more unpaid carers due to their own restrictions. I can't claim benefits as a carer for my disabled son due to the fact that I get long term disability benefits. Ironically, I'm permitted to work (around my disabilities). Unfortunately, I don't have a choice whether I want to/need/can look after my son. It has to be done. I do, however, have the choice to work or not. The system is absolutely disgusting. I've never know anything more ableist than the UK benefits system.
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u/SillyMidOff49 May 27 '23
This is engineered btw.
We can easily afford to pay for our Health and care system till the end of time with a windfall tax, closing loop holes and raising taxes on the wealthy/corporations.
The goal is to Slowly dismantle it and let it fail like the rest of the NHS, use this as an excuse to privatise and sell it off to companies they have a stake in.
Profit.
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u/tb5841 May 27 '23
Humanity has been dependent on unpaid care - from family members and from the wider community - for all of human history.
The issue is that for many there is no wid community anymore, and the economy doesn't allow people to survive without work the way it used to.
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u/Miserable_Leg3663 May 27 '23
I vaguely remember when things started to change, and I heard adults around me dub the new / cutting edge “care in the community service” as the “don’t care in the community system”.
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u/ChromedSoul May 27 '23
I can verify this, considering I am one of the 4m. The care system is a complete mess. I'm struggling with it all but battle on for my mum, who I care for
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u/homealoneinuk May 28 '23
Aging society and massive demographic imbalance will screw us over anyway. System needs massive overhaul.
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u/Moistkeano May 27 '23
Makes sense. Both my partner and I do about 10 hours each a week for an eldery relative completely unpaid. Im assuming we weren't abnormal
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u/iameverybodyssecret May 27 '23
The problem is the parasite system (capitalism) the higher up the chain you go the bigger the parasite.
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u/kramer2006 May 27 '23
I would love to know how people got on centuries ago with nowhere near the care/technology we have these days.
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u/Anandya May 27 '23
Early death, poverty, multi-generational families.
Honestly? People back then didn't get schooling, didn't get antibiotics and had low life expectancies. Arguing that we should go back to that doesn't take into account the reality that we need two working adults to run a family and that means unpaid care for family is hard to justify.
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u/Faith5v5 May 27 '23
Multigenerational families supporting each other. Or not, and you suffered/ died. Why would any civilised community want that?
Every person alive needed support to exist at some point (from the day they were born), and for those lucky enough to live to old age will need it again. I'm not sure why this is not the accepted reality in this country.
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u/Deadly_Flipper_Tab May 27 '23
Aren't social programs supposed to be a safety net for those without a network of support around them? This is how it works.
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u/passingconcierge May 27 '23
Unpaid Carers are putting £168Bn into the Economy. This costs the Government nothing as Unpaid means no pay - no benefits, no bursaries, no grants, nothing. That amounts to a tax cut of 33p in the £ off income tax for everyone. It is the biggest scam in history. Because that 33p in the £ does not come off your income tax it goes to reduce the operating costs of the "Care Sector". Which includes Local Authorities, the NHS, Private Businesses, and Charities. Who all get a cut of that money. The Carers do not.
So, to all those people ranting incoherently about "the government can not - or should not - just throw money at the problem": what are you going to do when those Unpaid Carers get forced out of unpaid caring by the Benefits System and stop subsidising those Local Authorities, Private companies, et al - who then have to find £168Bn - and rising - between them just to stand still as organisations?
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u/GennyCD May 27 '23
Calling family members "unpaid carers" in order to make a political point is complete nonsense.
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u/Maukeb May 27 '23
As far as I'm aware the social work system is slowly collapsing even with the unpaid carers.