r/unitedkingdom • u/wjfox2009 Greater London • May 28 '23
More than half of voters now want Britain to forge closer ties with the EU, poll reveals
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/may/28/more-than-half-of-voters-now-want-britain-to-forge-closer-ties-with-the-eu-poll-reveals250
u/No-Owl9201 May 28 '23
Oh goody, so when's the first #JoinEu referendum going to happen??
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u/matthieuC France May 28 '23
Best I can do is a free trade agreement with Lichtenstein and chlorinated chickens
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u/No-Owl9201 May 28 '23
Lol... well I guess he understands that he's only on doing a temporary assignment!!
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u/Shamefuru-Dispray May 28 '23
Can't you throw in some hormoned beef, fundamentalist christianity and privatised healthcare first?
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u/SnooHabits8484 May 28 '23 edited May 28 '23
We’ll never get back in without agreeing to join the Euro, which massively constrains monetary policy.
e: lol, downvote as much as you want, it’s true
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u/Bristol_man May 28 '23
We can join the single market though
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u/ThreeHeadedWolf May 28 '23
If you mean like Norway it would be wthout voting rights to regulate it. Basically all the downsides of it with only a part of the benefits. Getting out was so stupid that it's impossible to describe the impact it had in the next decades.
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u/Bristol_man May 28 '23
Yes like Norway. This is clearly more beneficial than being outside of the single market.
The non voting rights thing is just a price paid for economic gains
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u/ThreeHeadedWolf May 28 '23 edited May 28 '23
Oh, don't get me wrong. Being in the single market like Norway is definitely better than the current situation.
But the non voting rights is the price paid for stupidity, not economic gains. The UK had both voting rights and the access to the market until it decided on its own to renounce of it. Basically cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.
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u/Bristol_man May 28 '23
But the non voting rights is the price paid for stupidity, not economic gains. The UK had both voting rights and the access yo the market until it decided on its own to renounce of if. Basically cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.
Yes, we both know this.
I'm trying to suggest a way forward, not just rehash the same old rehash recriminations
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u/AdrianInLimbo May 28 '23
The UK had the best deal of any EU member. Common Market, Voting Rights, and got to keep Pound Sterling. And Farage and the boys made 51 percent of people think it was a shit deal.
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u/kanst May 28 '23
That was really the weirdest part, the UK had a sweetheart deal with the EU. They had benefits that other countries didn't and they punted that. Now at best they get the same deal as everyone else
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u/collectiveindividual May 28 '23
The non voting rights thing is just a price paid for economic gains
Single market membership was the best deal. What you call a gain is lipstick on a pig.
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u/cultish_alibi May 28 '23
it would be wthout voting rights to regulate it
Good, the single market is better off without the UK making decisions.
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u/kaiser1000 May 28 '23
It’s what we deserve.
In terms of upsides, we’ll have access to the biggest market in the world and get back freedom of movement (of capital and people).
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u/SnooHabits8484 May 28 '23
Yeah I think a customs union and the single market will happen. Incredibly expensive waste of time.
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u/Bristol_man May 28 '23
I'll be happy getting my freedom of movement back
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u/Objective-Ad-585 May 28 '23
Yeah, but then we are back to where we started...
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u/WhatDoYouMean951 May 28 '23
But this time with a better knowledge of the reasons why. It's not the quickest decisionmaking process but it's much better than not doing something that's better out of embarrassment.
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u/Objective-Ad-585 May 28 '23
Yes, but most of the people are still anti-EU, anti-immigration. The only thing that's changed is that we've realised we are poorer. That's it.
It's not that we've realised how amazing the EU is for everyone and how great some cultures are, freedom of movement, human rights laws, etc.
None of that, it's purely financial. It's stupid, more will need to change before we can return to the EU. We need to lose the air of superiority that we have and how xenophobic we are as a nation first. Before we do any of that, EU should 100% veto us rejoining.
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u/Guapa1979 May 28 '23
Project Fear
The member states of the EU decide the rules on joining - if they wanted the UK back in, a deal would be done. And remember They Need Us More Than We Need Them, so expect plenty of flexibility in any negotiations.
However the reality is, the UK will simply realign itself more and more with the EU, through deals and agreements on all kinds of matters. The UK will be a defacto member, just without a seat at the decision making table - a true rule taker, rather than maker.
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u/Objective_Umpire7256 May 28 '23
It’s like the political equivalent of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Target_fixation
They were so dumb and utterly obsessed with this rule taker not maker scenario, which at the time wasn’t even true, but through the sheer power of being so unbelievably thick and myopic while in their minds trying to avoid it, they have almost literally willed it into existence.
People really do get the government they deserve.
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u/MeccIt May 28 '23
the UK will simply realign itself more and more with the EU
Joining the CPTPP and the still ongoing threat to burn down EU rules 'just because' shows the UK will be going in the wrong direction for a while yet, delaying any turnaround.
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u/Guapa1979 May 28 '23
Well the Brexiter nutcases have been doing their level best to burn our bridges, but given the volume of trade with the EU versus the rest of the world, the UK is never going to actually float across the Atlantic, whatever agreements they sign.
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u/WhatDoYouMean951 May 28 '23
CP-TPP really requires floating across the Atlantic in a north-to-south direction, rounding the cape of Good Hope and crossing the Indian Ocean. For best results, keep going through the Southern Ocean past Australia and get yourself somewhere in the Pacific.
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u/matthieuC France May 28 '23
Well like Sweden UK will pledge to join the Euro eventually.
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u/L1A1 May 28 '23
We’ll never get back in without agreeing to join the Euro, which massively constrains monetary policy.
If it means we don't get that new twat's mug on our notes I'm fine with it.
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u/AtebYngNghymraeg May 28 '23
Unfortunately, member countries can choose the design of their own banknotes so we'd likely still have his mug on them.
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u/InfectedByEli May 28 '23
Honestly, if I were in charge of the EU that would be mandatory, along with further constraints about any future referenda needing 60% of the population (not voters) expressing a wish to leave.
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u/BloodyChrome Scottish Borders May 28 '23
along with further constraints about any future referenda needing 60% of the population (not voters) expressing a wish to leave.
That would require a change to the treaty
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u/InfectedByEli May 28 '23
Treaties can be changed. The UK leaving the EU has weakened it, not as much as it has weakened us, and they would be well advised to guard against repeats of member states being propagandised into leaving the Union.
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u/ThreeHeadedWolf May 28 '23
Unfortunately, yes. And the treaty should be a lot less demanding to get in, to avoid some idiot countries to start a desire to get out on some politician's whim.
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u/ThreeHeadedWolf May 28 '23
Yes. It's true. And the UK deserve to be treated the same as the other member states. Which means Denmark, Sweden, Czechia, and Hungary should get onboard the Euro. Unfortunately for the UK this is something ethically right, not legally binding and the UK had this right as well, as long as it was in the Union.
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u/collectiveindividual May 28 '23 edited May 28 '23
According to yields on ten year government bonds Greece is now a safer bet than the UK.
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May 28 '23
It’s kinda true in theory but not in practice
You have to commit to join the euro, but you don’t have to say when. A number of member states still have their own currency and they aren’t being pressed to change
It’s like me being totally committed to running a marathon. One day. Maybe
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u/arseholierthanthou May 28 '23
Not debating the accuracy of your statement, just asking whether that would actually be a bad thing. The EU is doing a lot better than us, maybe letting them control our money would be better for us than letting Boris' cohorts control it.
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u/unfoxable May 28 '23
Have to wait for labour and even then who knows if that will actually happen
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May 28 '23 edited Aug 11 '23
[deleted]
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u/TokiBongtooth May 28 '23
Unless he flip-flops which would be completely out of character /s sounds unlikely
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u/AtebYngNghymraeg May 28 '23
If public opinion swayed that way significantly I think he'd start talking about rejoining the single market. Once that happens, I think it'll be inevitable we rejoin completely.
I just hope it happens while Rees-Mogg is still alive so we can see the smile wiped from the odious little that's face.
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u/__gc May 28 '23
The one who will need convincing this time is Ursula and her successors
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u/pupeno United Kingdom May 28 '23 edited May 28 '23
But will they vote accordingly in the next election or will keep voting for parties that actively want Brexit, like the Conservative party, or parties that refuse to want one thing or another for fear of driving away a voter and thus they acquiesce to Brexit, like Labour?
The british population seem to want things but they are deadly scare to vote for the parties that want those things.
And I understand, tactical voting... if you deviate from the big two, the one that you don't like wins. Then we need voting reform. Why aren't they voting for the parties that are pro voting reform? We know what the solution to the problem is and this one is quite easy.
Sorry for the rant, but I'm disillusioned by the voting behavior in general.
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u/Spaceshipable May 28 '23
Completely agree. We did have a voting reform proposed but guess who lobbied against it? Labour and Conservative of courses.
Until we have a better voting system, it’s always going to be a matter of tactical voting.
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u/pupeno United Kingdom May 28 '23
Yeah, I'll refuse to vote tactical and will continue to vote for whoever provides voting reform. The only way this changes is if we stop being scared into tactical voting.
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u/Shamefuru-Dispray May 28 '23
Until we stop relying on turkeys voting for christmas you mean? It'll never happen while those in power stand to lose any power.
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u/whygamoralad May 28 '23
They will vote for who ever convinces them to vote for them because they can't think critically
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May 28 '23
I just wish politicians would stop bullshitting and be up front about what they’re thinking.
They don’t make decisions if favour of everyone, it tends to be decisions made for the benefit of the ‘upper class’
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u/james_pic May 28 '23
Why aren't they voting for the parties that are pro voting reform?
Because without voting reform, those parties have no chance of achieving significant power. Last time one got any power (the Lib Dems in the coalition), the Tories fobbed them off with a referendum on a much weaker voting reform than they wanted, then successfully campaigned against it.
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u/pupeno United Kingdom May 28 '23
I'm not sure I follow your response here.
I'm asking why people are not voting for voting reform.
You are saying that Tories/Labour can't hold power if we get voting reform, which I sort of/mostly agree.
But why is average joe thinking "You know what, I like Tories to have power, so I'm not going to vote for voting reform." I don't think they think that, but that's what I understand from your statement.
When I say they, I mean the citizenry, not the MPs. I know why Tories are against voting reform and pro gerrymandering, and why Labour is against voting reform (they lost the gerrymandering battle I think). But the citizenry should want to have democracy be representative. Until it is, we are stuck.
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u/james_pic May 28 '23
I think I'm just making one of your own points back to you. With the system we have, not voting tactically is often no better than throwing your vote away. So even if citizens want voting reform, there is no voting strategy under the current system that gets them voting reform, so they vote for the party they dislike the least out of those that can win, which inevitably isn't a party who support voting reform.
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u/pupeno United Kingdom May 28 '23
Ah, I understand your point now. Thank you.
For me it's simple. We are driving to a precipice and people are tactically voting whether to go right or left, even if I'm the only one, I'm going to vote for pressing the brakes. There's no value in voting left if all I can gain is on which side of the precipice I die.
The problem is not that Labour is not good enough, but that no party can be good enough with first pass the post.
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u/StreetkidLife May 28 '23 edited May 28 '23
My take from it: 1 in every 5 of you lot still somehow believe that Brexit solved more problems than it created.
Where are you fucking weasels hiding and why can't I find any of you in real life?
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u/Unhappy_Nothing_5882 May 28 '23
Because you probably don't associate with senile old people, shaved ape phone zombie thickos who believe conspiracy theories, nerdy weirdo Arnold Rimmer-esque fantasists, and of course racists 😆
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u/DeathHamster1 May 28 '23
Remember Cipolla's maxim - there are always more idiots out there than you can imagine.
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u/Falco_colombarius May 28 '23
Brexit has removed the excuse used as to why immigration couldn't be controlled. The irony is that the govt has chosen to increase immigration now it has full control over it. Yet now they cannot blame the EU for why immigration is so high.
Do you think bringing in ~500,000+ people every year is sustainable? We've yet to catch up with housing demand for the current population so bringing in such vast numbers every year is madness.
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u/BlondeTauren May 28 '23
Hm, a closer relationship you say, if only the UK was in the EU...
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u/RiggzBoson May 28 '23
We left the biggest single trade market in the world. Voluntarily. It will go down as one of the biggest political and economic blunders in British history.
The experts tried to warn you. You ignored them, putting their opinions aside for your own bias. Now we are here.
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u/ThatCheshireCat Leeds May 28 '23
But what about them foreigners /s
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u/crossreference16 May 28 '23
ikr! I find it hilarious that 2022 and 2021 had record levels of immigration, even more than before brexit. And it’s only looking like it’ll increase again this year.
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u/Craigothy-YeOldeLord Essex May 28 '23
Not surprised since a lot of people were told we wouldn't leave the SM or CU, but I doubt they will ever vote for parties willing to take us closer to the EU, they will still vote against their own good
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u/Falco_colombarius May 28 '23
If people wanted to leave the EU but explicitly wanted to retain single market access (free movement of people and goods etc) then that would've been a pointless vote. It would've retained EU rules but removed voting rights/privileges.
However, I think the majority of people on both sides of the debate (amongst the general public) wouldn't've been able to simply and accurately define the single market or the customs union. (And still won't be able to).
Certainly I think some people on both sides of the debate would've thought a scenario would've been possible in which free movement of goods, capital and services could be retained whilst ditching free movement of people.
The irony is that the govt can now control immigration outside the single market, yet has chosen to increase it!
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u/Independent-Chair-27 May 28 '23
Why would you not want free movement of people? Why wouldn’t you want the right to live and work in 28 different countries?
What the UK always needed was minimum wage and other legal protections to prevent employers growing businesses by creating low wage jobs.
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u/Falco_colombarius May 28 '23 edited May 28 '23
Hi, thanks for the reply. I do not want un-capped free movement of people. Sustainable levels of immigration aren't a problem. But Britain has never before had immigration on such a large, consistent scale as we've had since the late 1990s.
Because the UK has a better economy than many of those 28 countries (and because English is more widely spoken than any other language in Europe), the flow of people was largely one-way. People from countries such as Poland, Romania and Bulgaria, for example, came in large numbers whilst Brits did not emmigrate to those countries at the same levels.
This happened alongside high immigration from non-EU countries.
No country can sustain endless large-scale population growth. Mass immigration adds to pressures on public services and requires vast house-building programs to meet demand. It is difficult for a government to catch up with this demand - and ours hasn't come close. If it were to catch up with demand, a fair amount of the countryside would have to be built on - reducing our food security at a time when climate change is going to make global food trade become more volatile.
Some communities with disproportionately high levels of immigration resulting from EU free movement can feel like the pace of change is far too rapid, and un-democratic, as local housing stocks and public services become stretched, and it can take many years for some immigrants to integrate with society.
It would be in the interests of EU countries to allow some Brits to live and work with a long term visa. Ideally, we could have a reciprocal arrangement with certain EU countries - but this wouldn't require such a large influx from the EU.
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u/Pyromasa May 28 '23
Hi, thanks for the reply. I do not want un-capped free movement of people. Sustainable levels of immigration aren't a problem. But Britain has never before had immigration on such a large, consistent scale as we've had since the late 1990s.
Which likely hadn't much to do with the EU until the ascension of new members in 2003.
Because the UK has a better economy than many of those 28 countries (and because English is more widely spoken than any other language in Europe), the flow of people was largely one-way. People from countries such as Poland, Romania and Bulgaria, for example, came in large numbers whilst Brits did not emmigrate to those countries at the same levels.
Because the UK government at that time decided not to use transitional restrictions like the other old EU member states. Most other EU countries applied transitional restrictions for many years to reduce pressure. Nowadays, the EU and its newer member states have achieved such an improvement in the economies in newer member states that there isn't that much one-way worker movement anyway...
This happened alongside high immigration from non-EU countries.
A decision of the UK government.
No country can sustain endless large-scale population growth. Mass immigration adds to pressures on public services and requires vast house-building programs to meet demand. It is difficult for a government to catch up with this demand - and ours hasn't come close. If it were to catch up with demand, a fair amount of the countryside would have to be built on - reducing our food security at a time when climate change is going to make global food trade become more volatile.
This is a rather strange argument as leaving the EU surely has lead to a large decrease in food security. The UK could always bet on sourcing enough food from the EU in case of crisis. That's not the case anymore.
Some communities with disproportionately high levels of immigration resulting from EU free movement can feel like the pace of change is far too rapid, and un-democratic, as local housing stocks and public services become stretched, and it can take many years for some immigrants to integrate with society.
Again, this stems mostly from decisions of subsequent UK governments. The only difference now is that the UK gets more workers from non-EU countries with lesser worker rights which will probably long-term put higher pressure on the labour market. A freedom of movement worker is simply less likely to voluntary endure bad working environments.
It would be in the interests of EU countries to allow some Brits to live and work with a long term visa. Ideally, we could have a reciprocal arrangement with certain EU countries - but this wouldn't require such a large influx from the EU.
I mean there are the usually work visas now for UK and EU countries. I doubt there will be the need to introduce something special there.
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u/Grabs_Diaz May 28 '23 edited May 28 '23
The common perception that the UK was so uniquely attractive and flooded by EU immigrants is a fabrication by Brexiteers.
To put the UK foreign population into perspective here are the 2019 foreign population figures for a selection of European countries as taken from Wikipedia:
UK 14.1% Germany 15.7% France 12.8% Netherlands 13.4% Sweden 20.0% Spain 13.1% Ireland 17.1% Belgium 17.2% Austria 19.9% As you can see the UK's foreign population numbers are well in line with those of most other western and northern European nations. Unlike other EU countries the UK also has a large influx of migrates from former colonies and the Commonwealth. So immigration from EU countries is likely even below the western European average despite the British government opting to waive restrictions that were put in place by most other countries in the 2000s.
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u/reddit3601647 May 28 '23 edited May 28 '23
I'm in Canada and approximately 1 in 4 of our population is foreign born. We also consistently have one of the higher immigration inflow per capita. Both of our right/left wing political parties, and media had not pushed a negative immigration agenda. For us immigration is necessary to offset our non replacement birth rate, aging population, and to grow the economy to fund our social services and old age benefits.
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u/TransportationIll282 May 28 '23
This is pretty much what the UK and the guy ranting are missing. The people coming in are beneficial to the UK, both in service and monetarily... Migration has been a net benefit since the before the 90s. The issues this guy raises are not related to migration but rather poor governing.
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u/magnitudearhole May 29 '23
Yeah, it would have been pointless. so it's weird that the Leave campaign suggested constantly that we wouldn't be leaving the single market.
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u/OldGuto May 28 '23
Will Starmer acknowledge this or is he still worrying about what Biffa Bacon thinks?
He also needs to launch an inquiry into Russian involvement in the Brexit vote (something the Tories avoided) as they were a hostile nation back in 2016 as they were under sanctions because of the 2014 invasion of Ukraine. Name and shame even if it embarrasses some on the far left of Labour as well as the Tories.
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u/shysaver May 28 '23
The whole situation is embarassing for everyone involved.
The initial referendum question was just a binary choice with zero explanation of what that choice may involve, I remember at the time various Leave groups pushing for access to the single market/a 'Norway' style deal and other groups pushing for the hardest brexit possible.
The tories under Boris decided to vouch for the hard brexit and they got in, and this is where we are now.
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u/RidetheSchlange May 28 '23 edited May 28 '23
I think the statement of "forging closer ties" needs to be tempered. "Closer ties" is something in a British context of exceptionalism and asymmetry where Britain is in control of the definition and in control of the ongoing relationship, no matter what was agreed to. These things also continue to be misleading in that they assume everything is unilateral and that simply a concensus, vote, or referendum has to take place and it's done. The reality is that lots of negotiations would need to take place, some might take years, with the chances of the negotiations either being put on pause until a better political climate in the UK is reached or can be stopped because it's not favorable to the UK- the EU has all the cards here and the UK will have less say than countries like Romania, Poland, Bulgaria, Croatia, and so on and it will need to deal with that status of being at the back of the table. I read an analysis from a university and they said that one of the issues discussed was that if the UK ever came back, it would keep trying to force its way to the front of the table and the top of the EU power structure and when it doesn't get what it wants, it would begin to frustrate EU processes again. This is why major guarantees would be needed and even those would not be guarantees due to the UK's domestic political climate.
The only way for the UK to achieve a closer relationship would be to voluntarily stop diverging from EU standards and practices and under their own system of checks and balances initiate realigment and then maintaining realignment so that it's de facto EU in everything but the formality of membership. It needs to maintain that, handle the political fallout we know will take place, weather that storm and prove it can maintain it despite political fallout amongst the populace and political factions, and the government not become destabilized again. The last point is important because it also requires a stable government which the UK doesn't have. It has an absolute majority, sure, but it has no stability within and that's one of the main reasons for this mess. And don't forget, we all saw not only the referendum, but the confirmatory 2019 general election.
Realistically, this will be a generational change, not one that will be at the end of the decade like everyone is trying to pretend or like the guy in Led by Donkeys said in that goodbye video they projected on the cliffs of Dover. There's too much wishful thinking in all this dialogue and not enough working. People in the UK think that the work to do this is left up to some mystical mechanisms already working and if they think it, it will happen. No, it requires work from all corners of society and government, and task groups everywhere to discuss the situation and inform people. None of that is happening and we outside of the UK are not seeing it and that's an indicator of how far off this is. The other thing we see is that EU membership for the majority of Britons doesn't have a deeper meaning beyond buying stuff online without customs, taking the fast lanes at airports, ferries being faster, no 90/180 rule in the EU, and being able to live anywhere. There's absolutely no deeper meaning to EU membership and citizenship and absolutely no effort to teach what it means and how to increase democracy in the UK. On the other side of things, we in the EU are happy with how much change the EU has been able to make without the UK and even with Poland and Hungary frustrating things at times. We also like having good relationships with highly integrated, non-EU countries like Iceland, Norway, and Switzerland. Remember, the UK rejected those styles of relationships, too.
Oh, and another barrier which will 100% be unacceptable for the UK is the question of the russian oligarchs and gangsters in the UK. To grant the UK FoM would also give them the same access to the EU and a way to subvert the end of the golden passport schemes. I have serious issues with the UK due to how much headache and stress Brexit caused me. I was always conflicted about the question of being done with the UK, but EU citizenship changed that and I'm fully against it. The UK has not changed enough, but rather gone further into divergence, acceptance of the situation, and getting on with it and reinforcing the situation without the change in psychology needed to not only win the steps for a deeper relationship, but more importantly maintain them.
And the last bit of perspective is that we're seeing now in the form of Ukraine what a country is willing to do in order to become EU members and citizens. They've opened their books to the world partners. Zelensky is using the war as an opportunity to take out corruption, as we're seeing in the news. They have transparency registers. The people are actively displaying and learning about the EU, either there or as refugees here, so that they are psychologically aligning with the EU and aligning in material ways- in the millions. We are not seeing this in the UK. We have the comparison of a country at war aligning itself with the EU all on its own with the efforts in the hands of the people who are aligning themselves with the EU. The UK is not at war and it is not doing this. It just wants shorter lanes when traveling to EU airports.
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u/Icy_Complaint_8690 May 28 '23
I read an analysis from a university and they said that one of the issues discussed was that if the UK ever came back, it would keep trying to force its way to the front of the table and the top of the EU power structure and when it doesn't get what it wants, it would begin to frustrate EU processes again
Then they were talking rubbish.
The UK used to "frustrate EU processes" not out of spite but because it genuinely disagreed with them. The UK regularly held a different viewpoint from France and Germany, but that wasn't exactly a bad thing except being viewed from their perspective. And of course the UK usually wasn't alone in its feelings, much of Northern Europe often felt the same way, but were quite happy to stand back and let the UK take the lead.
And it's slightly strange thinking to believe that the UK would suddenly be without influence upon a return to the EU. It may take some time to fully repair relations, but the UK remains one of Europe's major nations, and it's ludicrous to think that they'd find themselves with less influence than Croatia etc like you suggest.
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u/RidetheSchlange May 28 '23 edited May 28 '23
rubbish
The moment I saw that word, I knew what was coming and so did everyone else- a person that can't read the room. The room being the EU27 and EEA and the people that belong to it.
but the UK remains one of Europe's major nations, and it's ludicrous to think that they'd find themselves with less influence than Croatia etc like you suggest.
You realize that Croatia is part of the EU, Schengen, and now the Eurozone, right? The UK is none of that and if it joins, it will be a new member next to established members who stuck it out and helped create a new EU the UK won't even recognize. This has been explicitly said that if the UK ever comes back, it will NOT have the same deal, nor will it be at the head of the table and will be behind countries that joined more recently. This is only fair and only proper. Does ist not even compute in your little brain that the UK had privileged opt-outs for decades and it won't have that and it will absolutely have to adopt the Euro and not the long-timeline implementation towards it which never ends up with the adoption, but it will have to adopt it? This has already been made clear. The UK wants to be in the EU more than the EU wants it back, but for some reason, you, like so many others, are gaslighting that the EU is groveling to get the UK back. This is yet another category between Brexit and Rejoin imbeciles. So good show.
But thanks for pretty much proving the issue and why the UK will never be able to rejoin. You expressed that you want to rejoin for the purpose of the UK bossing "lesser" countries around and swinging the dwindling might around of a country pretty much hated and mocked by everyone. Even Afghanistan mocks the UK. Romania mocks the UK, as does Poland, Bulgaria, and Croatia.
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u/Icy_Complaint_8690 May 28 '23
nor will it be at the head of the table
"Head of the table" is meaningless. Where is it written that France and Germany are supposed to be influential? Where is the pre-determined pecking order based on membership seniority?
Influence is about the relative strength and importance of each nation state and nothing more. Aside from that, reputation to a degree, but if you think the UK leaving the EU then returning is enough to make it less influential than tiny EU nations then that's just ludicrous. Fact is, the UK would still be in the top 3 economic and military powers in Europe, no getting round that.
You expressed that you want to rejoin for the purpose of the UK bossing "lesser" countries around and swinging the dwindling might around of a country pretty much hated and mocked by everyone.
I quite simply did not say that, but ok.
And tbh I think the fact that you've jumped straight to those kinds of remarks sums up exactly why the UK has the feelings it does about Europe. Is your might not dwindling? Are we not all small powers relatively speaking, far weaker than we were? So why is that a jab at the UK? The greatest argument for the EU is that Europe united is still a force to be recognised and, through cooperation, we still have a lot of weight to throw around, though we do not individually. One EU nation turning to another and saying "you're weaker than you used to be" is not only asinine, it's the pot calling the kettle black.
The UK always gets singled out for those kinds of attacks as if we're not literally all in the exact same boat. It's uncalled for, it breeds resentment, and honestly it's plain delusional for a fellow European to make comments of this sort.
And honestly maybe the fact that other Europeans talk about the UK like we're dirt on their shoe is possibly part of the reason Brits have never engaged with a wider European identity.
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u/RidetheSchlange May 28 '23
Victim role a bit?
You guys voted twice to leave the EU.
The EU doesn't want the UK back under the unilateral terms Britons want to rejoin under. Even with bilateral agreements, there is zero trust in the UK to not pull this again. The EU is your bogeyman and political tool and will continue to be for at least a generation. You simply want the fast lanes at airports and to not comply with the 90/180 rule.
Done. I know it sucks to hear we don't want the British here while you guys have been blasting how you don't want Europeans there. I'm British, I don't want you destroying my way of life in the EU. I don't want the EU back because you're destructive and exceptionalist. And your writing proves this. You don't want to join the club. You want to usurp the club again because domination and conquest is ingrained in your head whether you realize it or not.
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u/surrogated May 28 '23
I would just like to say thank you for actually engaging in conversation. I agree with your take on the person you're responding to. I don't actually think they fully understand what they're even saying. But all your points are true and understandable and just.. common knowledge everywhere in the EU.
I'm Scottish, so we were especially fucked hard by these fucking Brexit cunts. Many of whom now want back in with the lions share and same privileges like some kind of school bully of influence. Tragic state of affairs.
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u/Parmanda May 28 '23
the greatest argument for the EU is that Europe united is still a force to be recognised and, through cooperation, we still have a lot of weight to throw around, though we do not individually. One EU nation turning to another and saying "you're weaker than you used to be" is not only asinine, it's the pot calling the kettle black.
Ah yes, the one nation that decided to start a horrible campaign against the EU, calling it an enemy of democracy, that only takes British money and floods it with immigrants, dictates laws and burdens its economy with pointless regulations and then voted on that campaing and then decided to leave without proper preparations wants to tell us about the value of "sticking together" and "cooperation". Thanks!
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u/Icy_Complaint_8690 May 29 '23
I am naturally pleased to have been transformed into an entire nation state in your mind, but I would remind you that I'm not, in fact, the entire United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland...
(If that wasn't obvious enough).
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u/DeathHamster1 May 28 '23
The UK used to "frustrate EU processes" not out of spite but because it genuinely disagreed with them.
JIMMY HILL.
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u/DeathHamster1 May 28 '23
I have serious issues with the UK due to how much headache and stress Brexit caused me.
Yeah, that makes a great deal of sense. You're perfectly in your rights to tell us to go fuck ourselves after all that. How else are we to learn that we are our own worst foes?
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u/BloodyChrome Scottish Borders May 28 '23
You can have a close relationship while not being in the EU
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u/MeccIt May 28 '23
There's being in the friendzone and there's being the abusive ex who will not be trusted again until they make real amends.
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u/knobber_jobbler Cornwall May 28 '23
Just rejoin. No referendum needed, tell people complaining to shut up because you had your chance. Just hope that we get back at least a few of the terms we used to have.
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May 28 '23
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u/knobber_jobbler Cornwall May 28 '23
They EU would readmit the UK in a heartbeat but on worse terms. Its a win/win for all involved. All those potential vetoes disappear when it comes to Germany and France getting their way.
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u/knobber_jobbler Cornwall May 28 '23
I don't see it as a transactional thing at all, I'm just a realist. I want the UK to be in the EU. I want closer British integration with Europe. But there will be horse trading over how many MEPs, if the UK has to adopt the Euro etc. It will be transactional because that's unfortunately how things are right now. It doesn't mean I agree with it, just like I don't agree with randoms on the internet making assumptions about my point of view ;)
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u/7148675309 May 28 '23
In the end - the formation of the EU years ago was about having economic, social and political union. It’s the whole premise about the “two speed Europe” from decades ago - to try and assuage those fears. Ultimately - I doubt many people in the UK - or have ever wanted - anything more than the economic benefits.
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u/Chill_Panda May 28 '23
I would gladly accept any terms the EU offered, sure we’d be in a worst state than before when we had insane privileges in the EU, but they could offer us the worst deal possible and we would be infinitely better off than we are now
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u/Wafercrackertack May 28 '23
This is the same idiotic logic that made the UK what it is today, its as if rejoining can be done at a flick of a finger
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u/Maffayoo May 28 '23
I hope to god we rejoin at some point it's clearly been a failure leaving..
They'll definitely give us a worst deal then we had before but it'd be worth it.
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u/dalehitchy May 28 '23
Nah.... We just didn't believe in in enough and the remainers tried to destroy the success of it at every turn despite the Tory party having a 60 seat majority. /s
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u/ThreeHeadedWolf May 28 '23
Just hope that we get back at least a few of the terms we used to have.
Don't hold your breath. There are countries ready to demand a lot of things for not using their veto for UK's rejoin. The UK will be happy not to lose anything it now has like Gibraltar, let alone getting some optouts.
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u/magnitudearhole May 29 '23
Yeah they banged on for 30 years about how much they wanted to leave the EU and then when we did they didn't have a clue why. Screw em. They had their chance and blew it.
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u/Ginger-Snap-1 May 28 '23
Interesting idea! Maybe there could be some kind of community or association or consortium of countries? Seems possible that could benefit those involved…
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u/goose_2019 May 28 '23
When you read this, you think your in a bad dream. Cant ever believe this actually happened
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u/pm_me_your_amphibian May 28 '23
Oh, if only there was some kind of arrangement that could be made to formalise that.
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u/Realistic-Plant3957 May 28 '23
tldr
A clear majority of British voters now favours building closer relations with the European Union, according to new polling that highlights a dramatic reversal in the tide of public opinion since Brexit. Some 19% wanted to see more visas generally and 32% said they wanted to see more visas issued, but only in sectors with labour shortages.
Naomi Smith, chief executive of Best for Britain, said: “In just a few short years, public opinion in Britain has moved on from being pro-Brexit, to believing Johnson’s deal has done more harm than good, to now supporting a closer relationship with the EU. And from this polling, it is clear that the majority of voters knows that Brexit is a key factor.”
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May 28 '23
More than half of British people wanted to stay in the EU in 2016. But the electorate was lied to, manipulated and hoodwinked by foreign actors and the very wealthy inti voting against their own interests.
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u/Turak64 May 28 '23
I reckon we should start some sort of group or union with countries in mainland Europe. We could strike trade deals and help each other grow. Maybe one one day that will happen.
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u/_Prisoner_24601 May 28 '23
Leave was never the majority of the population because so many people stayed home. Leave was barely the majority of voters and a significant number of them have come to rightfully regret their vote. The whole idea was stupid.
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u/Physical-File2699 May 28 '23
I think the UK is too stubborn to rejoin but seems hell bent on getting closer, maybe not Schengen levels, but certainly market wise. I mean you’d be an idiot not to. Well…. I mean we already are idiots, but still. I still can’t believe we just left the nation high and dry with basically no deal with the EU. And then picked the best time to actually properly leave in the middle of a pandemic. Then people complained that they couldn’t live in France for half the year. I swear I’m still dumbfounded at the intelligence a large majority of the human race seems to be lacking, like wtf did you expect to happen?
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u/gone-hikin May 28 '23
it will never cease to amaze me that a nation other than the US has voters who would vote for something so obviously against their best interest. I thought we had that market cornered
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u/timmystwin Across the DMZ in Exeter May 28 '23
Even of the Brexit lot a fair few wanted ties with Europe, be it free trade or just bonds but on our terms.
They're our neighbours and cutting them off so completely was one of the dumbest moves in world history.
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u/mxp804 May 28 '23
Rees Mogg is the embodiment of everything that is both wrong in politics and capitalism
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u/Cynical_Classicist May 28 '23
We may well be back on the EU next decade! I hope that Farage and Johnson get to see their big achievement fall apart.
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u/MeccIt May 28 '23
We may well be back on the EU next decade!
doubt
An entire generation has to be educated, or die off, first.
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u/InfectedByEli May 28 '23
I hope that Farage and Johnson get to see their big achievement fall apart.
That's already happened, Farage is currently blaming the Tories for Brexit being a steaming pile of poop. I take comfort in Germany's decision to reject Farage's citizenship application.
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u/__gc May 28 '23
Unfortunately they'll be too busy enjoying their fat pensions to notice what's happening around them
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u/Cynical_Classicist May 28 '23
True, but I like the thought of the legacy-obsessed BJ watching what he achieved come crashing down, finalising him as a failed PM!
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u/LostTheGameOfThrones European Union May 28 '23
You mean like being a member? Gee imagine if we had that and then decided we didn't want it...
Imagine if we didn't just enjoy the benefits of being a member, but we also had specific exemptions given to us, and we still decided we didn't want it...
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u/Ok_Count_3237 May 28 '23
More than half of the voters are nonsensical morons who got swindled into voting for Brexit and now have slowly woken up to the realisation that we’ve shot ourselves in both feet then blamed Germany and France for bleeding out.
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u/AlphaFlySwatter May 28 '23
Brits could become Europe's cheapo workforce, so Poland can finally level up.
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u/ImOnlyChasingSafety May 28 '23
The media absolutely hoodwinked our gullible voter base. Completely irresponsible.
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u/Winter-Fun-6193 May 28 '23
Wait a minute, didn't they have closer ties with EU before? In all seriousness, hope they can hold a referendum to re-join.
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u/voidspector May 28 '23
Pretty sure I was the only one in my family who wanted to stay. Not versed on politics, even then, all I knew was things becoming more expensive even slightly was a bad thing. But apparently a extra 5p on oranges didn't matter to them.
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u/snagsguiness May 28 '23
I agree, and we should negotiate it piece by piece, we could’ve done this when we were negotiating leaving, but the EU did not want to do that.
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u/Consistent-Fly-9522 May 28 '23
Only took what 7/8 years for enough of them to realise that Farage, Johnson, Gove and Rees mogg took them for fools